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	<title>Comments on: Climate scientists, skeptics earn a &#8220;great big time out&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/</link>
	<description>Creation, ecology and economics, families and communities</description>
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		<title>By: rustypritchard</title>
		<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator>rustypritchard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustypritchard.com/?p=161#comment-87</guid>
		<description>Finally, most of the data in question is already publicly available. RealClimate has a data sources page (http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/) that many have found helpful, and they add to it regularly when new sources come online. 

The experiments Eric suggests are good ones, and they&#039;ve been run repeatedly. I&#039;ll dig up some citations and add them soon. They tend to show that climate models have consistently gotten it nearly right, and if anything have tended to underestimate the magnitude of global warming. Check back later for cites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finally, most of the data in question is already publicly available. RealClimate has a data sources page (<a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/" rel="nofollow">http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/</a>) that many have found helpful, and they add to it regularly when new sources come online. </p>
<p>The experiments Eric suggests are good ones, and they&#8217;ve been run repeatedly. I&#8217;ll dig up some citations and add them soon. They tend to show that climate models have consistently gotten it nearly right, and if anything have tended to underestimate the magnitude of global warming. Check back later for cites.</p>
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		<title>By: rustypritchard</title>
		<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/#comment-86</link>
		<dc:creator>rustypritchard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustypritchard.com/?p=161#comment-86</guid>
		<description>Eric&#039;s listed two pretty good websites to look at: 

realclimate.org (pro), run by Gavin Schmidt, a climate modeller at NASA&#039;s Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS)
climateaudit.org (con), run by Steven McIntyre, a former mining company executive, who has been critical of NASA GISS research</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric&#8217;s listed two pretty good websites to look at: </p>
<p>realclimate.org (pro), run by Gavin Schmidt, a climate modeller at NASA&#8217;s Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS)<br />
climateaudit.org (con), run by Steven McIntyre, a former mining company executive, who has been critical of NASA GISS research</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Merritt</title>
		<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Merritt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustypritchard.com/?p=161#comment-85</guid>
		<description>Rusty,

Once again you have taken a level-headed  and prudent approach to this divisive issue. I constantly remind myself that I am not a climate scientist who possesses enough expertise to judge the validity of science&#039;s claims. The scientists I do know, however, tell me that it takes decades of time and mountains of data to develop this level of confidence in a scientific theory. As a Christian who isn&#039;t an expert, that&#039;s all I have to go on. It seems to me that the prevailing opinion on climate change is very likely true. If so, the fallout will ravage earth&#039;s poorest residents. 

My occupational integrity and Christian virtues lead me to support prudent action despite these emails. 

Jonathan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rusty,</p>
<p>Once again you have taken a level-headed  and prudent approach to this divisive issue. I constantly remind myself that I am not a climate scientist who possesses enough expertise to judge the validity of science&#8217;s claims. The scientists I do know, however, tell me that it takes decades of time and mountains of data to develop this level of confidence in a scientific theory. As a Christian who isn&#8217;t an expert, that&#8217;s all I have to go on. It seems to me that the prevailing opinion on climate change is very likely true. If so, the fallout will ravage earth&#8217;s poorest residents. </p>
<p>My occupational integrity and Christian virtues lead me to support prudent action despite these emails. </p>
<p>Jonathan</p>
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		<title>By: rustypritchard</title>
		<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>rustypritchard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:25:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustypritchard.com/?p=161#comment-84</guid>
		<description>As I pointed out in another comment, even if we distrusted and ignored the data from this research institution, there are multiple lines of evidence supporting the notion of a warming earth. It&#039;s nice that scientists are in a sort of competition with each other, and don&#039;t simply trust each others&#039; results. 

Here&#039;s a quote from a &quot;so-called skeptic&quot;, a crackpot (word-chosen carefully) named Lord Monckton. &quot;The Hadley-CRU temperature data set is simply a joke. It has no scientific data whatsoever,&quot; he asserts. &quot;It&#039;s simply made up; it&#039;s just nonsense.”

What&#039;s nonsense is that kind of bald assertion. Folks at the CRU may have mismanaged their data--which still hasn&#039;t been shown--but they didn&#039;t just make it up. Folks like Monckton don&#039;t deserve to be called skeptics--they have their minds firmly shut to the influence of evidence. And of course, you could make the same critique of some environmental activists.

But using the word &quot;skeptic&quot; simply for folks who disbelieve mainstream science does an injustice to any who claim to be a scientist, where skepticism is fundamental virtue. We wouldn&#039;t know what we know about the climate system if scientists weren&#039;t skeptical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I pointed out in another comment, even if we distrusted and ignored the data from this research institution, there are multiple lines of evidence supporting the notion of a warming earth. It&#8217;s nice that scientists are in a sort of competition with each other, and don&#8217;t simply trust each others&#8217; results. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a quote from a &#8220;so-called skeptic&#8221;, a crackpot (word-chosen carefully) named Lord Monckton. &#8220;The Hadley-CRU temperature data set is simply a joke. It has no scientific data whatsoever,&#8221; he asserts. &#8220;It&#8217;s simply made up; it&#8217;s just nonsense.”</p>
<p>What&#8217;s nonsense is that kind of bald assertion. Folks at the CRU may have mismanaged their data&#8211;which still hasn&#8217;t been shown&#8211;but they didn&#8217;t just make it up. Folks like Monckton don&#8217;t deserve to be called skeptics&#8211;they have their minds firmly shut to the influence of evidence. And of course, you could make the same critique of some environmental activists.</p>
<p>But using the word &#8220;skeptic&#8221; simply for folks who disbelieve mainstream science does an injustice to any who claim to be a scientist, where skepticism is fundamental virtue. We wouldn&#8217;t know what we know about the climate system if scientists weren&#8217;t skeptical.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustypritchard.com/?p=161#comment-83</guid>
		<description>In regards to Pat Michaels, he clearly is (was) skeptical as he changed his mind as new evidence came in. Some amount of evidence did convince him. I&#039;ll tell you straightforwardly what evidence will convince me. Freeze the code of a climate model, ca. 2009. Make predictions of global average temperatures, as well as other information that would clearly distinguish a CO2 forcing explanation for other competing hypotheses like solar variation, in ca. 2029. Record global average temperatures and the auxiliary information in 2029 in a manner that is reviewed in the open air by mainstream climatologists, agnostics and skeptics. I&#039;m a physicist by training and things like this are done routinely in physics. That&#039;s one of the reasons why physics is so far ahead (and so much less political) than other sciences. Alternative hypotheses are constantly produced. Well designed experiments are carried out in the course of months to distinguish between competing hypotheses. These experiments are reproduced repeatedly in multiple labs and built upon.

Forensic sciences (like Astronomy, economics and climatology) can&#039;t do this. The experiment I propose will take 20 years, not months. The experiment is not repeatable, as nature only takes one course over the next twenty years. And, for that matter, I&#039;m not sure anyone is even contemplating doing this. Are you aware of any attempt to validate frozen 1989 models against 2009 data?

By the way, I don&#039;t think climatology is in a unique situation. I&#039;m currently a professor in a department that is heavy on economics, where I have a reputation for being skeptical of all econometric fitting that doesn&#039;t have a prediction for data that couldn&#039;t have been known at the time of the original parameter estimation. J. Scott Armstrong, marketing professor at Wharton, wrote the book (literally) on forecasting. He claims econometric fits are nearly useless at predicting data that couldn&#039;t have been known at the time of the fit. He has a proposed bet with Al Gore that global temperatures will be closer to level than the IPCC prediction in the near future. I don&#039;t believe Gore has accepted.

Anyway, until climate models have passed a hypothesis/dangerous distinguishing prediction/experimental result test, I&#039;ll remain skeptical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In regards to Pat Michaels, he clearly is (was) skeptical as he changed his mind as new evidence came in. Some amount of evidence did convince him. I&#8217;ll tell you straightforwardly what evidence will convince me. Freeze the code of a climate model, ca. 2009. Make predictions of global average temperatures, as well as other information that would clearly distinguish a CO2 forcing explanation for other competing hypotheses like solar variation, in ca. 2029. Record global average temperatures and the auxiliary information in 2029 in a manner that is reviewed in the open air by mainstream climatologists, agnostics and skeptics. I&#8217;m a physicist by training and things like this are done routinely in physics. That&#8217;s one of the reasons why physics is so far ahead (and so much less political) than other sciences. Alternative hypotheses are constantly produced. Well designed experiments are carried out in the course of months to distinguish between competing hypotheses. These experiments are reproduced repeatedly in multiple labs and built upon.</p>
<p>Forensic sciences (like Astronomy, economics and climatology) can&#8217;t do this. The experiment I propose will take 20 years, not months. The experiment is not repeatable, as nature only takes one course over the next twenty years. And, for that matter, I&#8217;m not sure anyone is even contemplating doing this. Are you aware of any attempt to validate frozen 1989 models against 2009 data?</p>
<p>By the way, I don&#8217;t think climatology is in a unique situation. I&#8217;m currently a professor in a department that is heavy on economics, where I have a reputation for being skeptical of all econometric fitting that doesn&#8217;t have a prediction for data that couldn&#8217;t have been known at the time of the original parameter estimation. J. Scott Armstrong, marketing professor at Wharton, wrote the book (literally) on forecasting. He claims econometric fits are nearly useless at predicting data that couldn&#8217;t have been known at the time of the fit. He has a proposed bet with Al Gore that global temperatures will be closer to level than the IPCC prediction in the near future. I don&#8217;t believe Gore has accepted.</p>
<p>Anyway, until climate models have passed a hypothesis/dangerous distinguishing prediction/experimental result test, I&#8217;ll remain skeptical.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 18:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustypritchard.com/?p=161#comment-82</guid>
		<description>Actually, I don&#039;t think a deeper look demonstrates the evidence is intact.
A serious fraction of the data is clearly suspect if not outright wrong. I
hope readers take this post seriously and do look deeper. Don&#039;t just check
realclimate etc. but check climateaudit etc. One man&#039;s case looks right
until another challenges it.

Also, it would be polite not to use the word &quot;so-called&quot; in front of the
word &quot;skeptic&quot;. The skeptics are actually skeptical, so &quot;skeptic&quot; is the
correct word to use to describe them. Many (though, as at CRU, not all) are
intelligent, informed, qualified and honest.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I don&#8217;t think a deeper look demonstrates the evidence is intact.<br />
A serious fraction of the data is clearly suspect if not outright wrong. I<br />
hope readers take this post seriously and do look deeper. Don&#8217;t just check<br />
realclimate etc. but check climateaudit etc. One man&#8217;s case looks right<br />
until another challenges it.</p>
<p>Also, it would be polite not to use the word &#8220;so-called&#8221; in front of the<br />
word &#8220;skeptic&#8221;. The skeptics are actually skeptical, so &#8220;skeptic&#8221; is the<br />
correct word to use to describe them. Many (though, as at CRU, not all) are<br />
intelligent, informed, qualified and honest.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 18:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustypritchard.com/?p=161#comment-81</guid>
		<description>Another way to tell that you are doing science, is by creating a
hypothesis and then using a well designed experiment to test that hypothesis. This experiment should be reproducible even by those who are initially agnostic or skeptical. Climate scientists seem to be doing an awful lot to prevent agnostics and skeptics from analyzing their methodology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another way to tell that you are doing science, is by creating a<br />
hypothesis and then using a well designed experiment to test that hypothesis. This experiment should be reproducible even by those who are initially agnostic or skeptical. Climate scientists seem to be doing an awful lot to prevent agnostics and skeptics from analyzing their methodology.</p>
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		<title>By: rustypritchard</title>
		<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator>rustypritchard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 18:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustypritchard.com/?p=161#comment-80</guid>
		<description>Thanks Dorothy. Kelemen adds the disclaimer that he&#039;s not a climate scientist but rather a geologist. (He is working on an important climate issue, that of carbon capture and storage, which might help with the problem, if it can be made to work.) I think that it makes him more credible to be on the outside looking in. And it gives some confidence that there is more than one dataset to rely on for the necessary science (although they should be under increased scrutiny now!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Dorothy. Kelemen adds the disclaimer that he&#8217;s not a climate scientist but rather a geologist. (He is working on an important climate issue, that of carbon capture and storage, which might help with the problem, if it can be made to work.) I think that it makes him more credible to be on the outside looking in. And it gives some confidence that there is more than one dataset to rely on for the necessary science (although they should be under increased scrutiny now!).</p>
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		<title>By: rustypritchard</title>
		<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator>rustypritchard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 18:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustypritchard.com/?p=161#comment-79</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Eric, for your comments. It&#039;s nice to talk to folks who are informed and seeking the truth. 

You mentioned folks wanting to beat up Pat Michaels, but in this case he&#039;s on the global warming side: as one of the chief skeptics of mainstream climate science, has repeatedly warned other skeptics away from the &quot;global warming has halted argument&quot;, admitting that it will make them look ridiculous in the long run, and it&#039;s bad for skepticism. He warns against trying to get much mileage out of your point #3. It&#039;s an argument that could have been made many times in the past 150 years (that global warming appeared to have stopped), but each time that argument would have proved wrong. Only time will tell if the current slowdown is permanent, but history is against it. 

Remember that the CRU dataset is only one of four major temperature datasets on global average surface temperatures. Two are based in US institutions, one in Japan, and one in the UK. They show remarkable agreement on trends, and in fact the CRU dataset (from the UK) was the one that showed the least change, so if you rejected it, the global warming evidence would actually appear more dramatic. But the attention to this dataset should increase scrutiny on the others, which is right and useful.

Geochemist Peter Kelemen agrees with you that some scientists, like the ones in the emails, have moved on from advising to persuading, not a role for scientists as scientists. As he puts it, all real scientists are climate skeptics. It points to a misuse of the word &quot;skeptic&quot;. Most of the people who reject mainstream climate science are not skeptical, they just don&#039;t believe it (the same can be said about many environmentalists, but they don&#039;t claim to be skeptics). No amount of evidence would convince them to be skeptical of their own positions! Again, that&#039;s true of many on both sides of the anthropogenic global warming debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Eric, for your comments. It&#8217;s nice to talk to folks who are informed and seeking the truth. </p>
<p>You mentioned folks wanting to beat up Pat Michaels, but in this case he&#8217;s on the global warming side: as one of the chief skeptics of mainstream climate science, has repeatedly warned other skeptics away from the &#8220;global warming has halted argument&#8221;, admitting that it will make them look ridiculous in the long run, and it&#8217;s bad for skepticism. He warns against trying to get much mileage out of your point #3. It&#8217;s an argument that could have been made many times in the past 150 years (that global warming appeared to have stopped), but each time that argument would have proved wrong. Only time will tell if the current slowdown is permanent, but history is against it. </p>
<p>Remember that the CRU dataset is only one of four major temperature datasets on global average surface temperatures. Two are based in US institutions, one in Japan, and one in the UK. They show remarkable agreement on trends, and in fact the CRU dataset (from the UK) was the one that showed the least change, so if you rejected it, the global warming evidence would actually appear more dramatic. But the attention to this dataset should increase scrutiny on the others, which is right and useful.</p>
<p>Geochemist Peter Kelemen agrees with you that some scientists, like the ones in the emails, have moved on from advising to persuading, not a role for scientists as scientists. As he puts it, all real scientists are climate skeptics. It points to a misuse of the word &#8220;skeptic&#8221;. Most of the people who reject mainstream climate science are not skeptical, they just don&#8217;t believe it (the same can be said about many environmentalists, but they don&#8217;t claim to be skeptics). No amount of evidence would convince them to be skeptical of their own positions! Again, that&#8217;s true of many on both sides of the anthropogenic global warming debate.</p>
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		<title>By: Dorothy</title>
		<link>http://rustypritchard.com/2009/12/09/climate-scientists-skeptics-earn-a-great-big-time-out/#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustypritchard.com/?p=161#comment-78</guid>
		<description>This is very similar to my own perspective. I am really angry with scientists who even suggest impropriety, because in the minds of many, it brings all of the science into question. Some of their actions are close to or are, professional misconduct. But the data seem to be very strong, and that is upheld by people not in this group, also irritated by them, doing other climate work. One summary that was helpful t me was this in Popular Mechanics by Peter Kelemen, another climate scientist:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4338343.html

Thanks for a great article, Rusty</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very similar to my own perspective. I am really angry with scientists who even suggest impropriety, because in the minds of many, it brings all of the science into question. Some of their actions are close to or are, professional misconduct. But the data seem to be very strong, and that is upheld by people not in this group, also irritated by them, doing other climate work. One summary that was helpful t me was this in Popular Mechanics by Peter Kelemen, another climate scientist:<br />
<a href="http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4338343.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4338343.html</a></p>
<p>Thanks for a great article, Rusty</p>
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